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Arrow Question / Issue:

"For this (Summary of Changes Since Vatican II) page to be of real use, each fact claimed must be checked and the document that generated the change must be cited. However, and specifically for the 'Fruits of Vatican II' page, there are some problems. While I agree that many of these changes occurred around the time of Vatican II, they were not all directly caused by the documents produced by the Council. For example, I cannot find the decreased or eliminated use of candles anywhere in any Church document (including those of Vatican II). How did that 'fruit' make it onto the website? In that case, it's not just documents that I've examined, but in my experience at a number of various churches, there does not seem to be a decreased use or elimination of candles (although I will admit that not all candles are wax - some burn oil instead)."

 

Arrow Answer / Resources:

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Thank you for your feedback. To address your concerns...

First, the elaborate documentation you seek regarding changes in the wake of Vatican II is clearly beyond the scope of the articles in question. Note that the referenced page is titled a "SUMMARY of Changes Since Vatican II" – it is intended only to be a "summary" and not a comprehensive scholarly account of all changes.

Second, in many cases, there would actually be NO such documentation – as if Vatican II called for all the problems that have followed in its wake (e.g. widespread loss of faith)! One may want to tie all the items to neat little documents as if Vatican II precisely called for all the changes in detail, but this is NOT what happened. Rather a so-called 'spirit of Vatican II' has infected the Church in the wake of the Second Vatican Council – and this 'spirit' sometimes even goes against the actual text of Vatican II. As indicated in the article you referenced...

"Some of the changes made in the so-called 'Spirit of Vatican II' are actually contrary to the expressed directives of the Second Vatican Council."

You can likewise find the following quotes appearing within the articles that you reference...

"Although not all changes were authorized or called for by Vatican II, the Second Vatican Council may be considered an impetus for such change."

And...

"Items may not be willed by or directly caused by the Second Vatican Council (and may even be in contradiction to its decrees)."

Yet you state that "While I agree that many of these changes occurred around the time of Vatican II, they were not all directly caused by the documents produced by the Council." Perhaps you did not read our site very carefully. That is precisely what we have said.

Also, you say that "each fact claimed must be checked and the document that generated the change must be cited", yet a manifest fact requires no documentation (do you require documentation that the sky is blue or do you just accept it as fact based on simple observation?). If you choose, you can corroborate statements on our site by many sources (including freely available online sources). For example, references to the number of candles being reduced (including altar candles & votive candles) is available online. Just because this reduction in candles may not have happened in your area (especially if it tends to be conservative), that does not mean it hasn't happened more widely throughout the Church. And have you actually compared old images of parishes in your area to new ones? Or asked older people in various areas – people who were there – about the changes? This difference concerning the number of candles is so well known as to not require proof. If you like, you can see some pictorial examples here (scroll to 'Altar / Table'). Likewise, a cursory web search turns up statements such as: "After Vatican II, MANY reform-minded pastors did away with votive candles." (emphasis added) You can find plenty more such items online, should you choose to look. You also "admit that not all candles are wax - some burn oil instead", but fail to mention the post Vatican II novelty of 'electronic votive candles'. If you have not seen these, I would say you are fortunate.

In any event, concerning candles, you ask "How did that 'fruit' make it onto the website?" – it made it there because it is true (although technically it is not listed as a 'fruit' on the Fruits of Vatican II article, but rather as a 'change' on the 'Summary of Changes Since Vatican II' article). And it is MANIFESTLY true, requiring no documentation as to its origin. If it is not true in your area, consider yourself fortunate. Note that we have disclaimed that "Items may vary and information above may not be representative." Again, if that is the case for you consider yourself fortunate.

In the future, instead of attempting to use these pages as comprehensive reference work – which is obviously not the intention of an article entitled "SUMMARY of Changes..." – you might try instead using them as a springboard to research various items more in depth.

Ultimately, the facts are the facts. And again, a manifest fact requires no documentation. We fear our judgment and it would therefore not be our intent to 'make things up' or misrepresent the facts on our site. You are free to seek the corroboration of all facts on our site – and we WELCOME you to do so. We believe that when you do, you will find that facts we have provided on our site are quite true, even if you cannot find documentation as to their origin. In your fact-checking endeavor, you might find materials on the page here to be useful. Please note though, as the page says, that the list "is not comprehensive and that inclusion on this list does not necessarily mean that we endorse the author, any/all the content, the publisher, those who sell the books, any associated organizations or publications, etc... " Other publications may also be useful, including ones that compare traditional materials to the G.I.R.M.

Finally, note that items indicated on these pages that you criticize are generally well-known in traditional circles, so perhaps if you were more well-read with regard to matters of tradition, you would be able to see the articles on our site as a helpful summary of highlights as they were intended to be, instead of the extensive documentation you seem to be desiring. It may also increase your comfort level to know that this material (both the summary of changes and the fruits) has been shared with an elderly diocesan priest – and not only did he have no objections to the material, but rather called it "excellent" and "first class".

We hope the above may be of assistance.


Reminder: We make no guarantee whatsoever regarding any item herein. Items herein may be the opinions of their authors and do not necessarily reflect our views. All applicable items may be subject to change at any time without notice. Utilize any link(s) appearing on this page at your own risk. For more terms information, see "Important Notice" below.

  

 

  

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